Sunday, October 12, 2008

Notes from October 1 Meeting with USFS in New Mexico

So theses are the notes as I received them with names omitted. Just an FYI, just because places are mentioned in these notes does not mean a gathering will be at any one of these places.


Subject: Notes from Oct. 1 Meeting with FS

A str[Notes: these notes are very incomplete . scribe XXXX]

Wednsday October,1 2008, US Forest Supervisors Office - santa fe Rodeo+ zia 2:00PM

Present- rainbow gatherers: me (XXX), XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX ||;{ Forest Service Personal :XXXX Regonal Supr.ALBQ., XXXX Head LEO Alb., Sante Fe Forest: XXX, XXX- Recreation, Lands+ minerals staff., XXX- Deputy Forest Supervisor, Carson Forest Reorce div.:XXX*Gila Forest:[{*VIA TELECONFRINCE*}]""XXX, Sup.

After a few Presentations XXX Began:

XX: We are unlikley to be looking at the sante fe forest {{*all three Santa Fe Reps Relaxed}}

XX: discused his expresion of LEO harassment w've Suffered

XXX: He did not know about previous harrassment, but that his job was to enforce the law. A signed permit was part of the law and so he expected to see one.

XX: Our nature is to keep the peace. We help people to become, and be peaceful. We'd like to create an "autonomous zone" of peace. However the LEO's continue to introduce a bad attitude.

XX: In the past there have been deliberate speed traps and "left turn traps" inflicted on us.

XX: Was this an "unauthorized gathering?" In any case the Forest Supervisor of the particular forest will be in charge - not the LEO's.

XX: XX gave further details on the "left turn trap". In Wyoming, a car would come to a left turn from the dirt forest road to another. Such a turn was marked bya rock pile. With no traffic in sight, the car would turn left without a turn signal..where out of nowhere at all the LEO would appear out of nowhere and give them a ticket for no turn signal and ran its occupants and would separate/search them at length. This happened to many. One witness had a $220 ticket for this. Secondly, on the permit we have had an operating plan as we've used before, is an option in the regulations. For three years we had a permit signed by someone. But all the last five years (the three with permits, and the two since then where we used Op plans) we've still had intolerable harassments of the "left turn" variety, "simple misdemeanors". Furthermore, if we end up (are pushed into) an "illegal gathering" (or "unauthorized") status, all the resource people will be "swept off the table." Taken off of command and control, even to enter the gathering, resource people will have to be accompanied by gun wearing LEOs. Therefore XXX suggested some means is needed to make gathering authorized.

XX: Without a signed permit it becomes an unauthorized gathering. We ie: the Forest Service Management will run the gathering. I can make it operate.

XX: We know the OP (operating plan) wasn't completely satisfactory to the forest service (in Arkansas '07).

Forest Service (various): Yes, we had "accountability problems".

XX: Last regional in New Mexico a permit application was made with the line for an agent or a representative left blank. This year a senator named Brasso went through the roof because we were being given special treatment. Find some mechanism to 'authorize' the gathering without us needing a 'signer.' Some of us replied that the OP we used was actually more detailed than any permit ever used. Thus the forest was better served by an OP system.

XX: There was an incident where ten campers where told that they needed a permit.

(Various voices said) : It is now 75, not ten.

ME (XX): I said that, as I read the relevant laws, a signed permit can only be denied for one of three reasons; Damage to the forest, Harm to people, or confict with other unauthorized forest users. I said if you (forest service{FS}), hold to the signature requirement, it would be irrelevant to these three goals. Furthurmore ( I said) some of us felt the signature issue was so important that we had gone to jail rather than sign.

XX- An illegal $10,000 bond was added to the permit application we were asked to sign. Also, as negotiations were underway, a force of cops were sent out and arrested us.

XX: (to XXand XX): And yet, many LEOs are not like that. XXX is an outstanding law officer.

XX - Don't blame the LEOs. We are a tool of management. Sometimes, we can be a scalpel, sometimes a club. But we are a tool of management. The LEOs are not opposed to the Rainbow Family, but some people at the gatherings are "not the best in the world", so we never know who we are dealing with. We have to deal with all of them.

XX - Our Shantisina watches everybody- we know who + how to deal with them without a force of guns

XX - But I don't know who I'm dealing with

XX- Our problems are usually not with local LEOs - but there is a "flying squad" of "hit men" who come from Atlanta or wherever every year and harass us.

XX - There have always been LEOs around. However, back in the 90's some of them would take off their jackets + casually drape them over their sidearms when visiting us. Nowadays they carry automatic long guns and fire paintballs at us.

XX - Don't blame the LEOs, they are tools of management.

XX - I'd be glad to have PANCHO beside me

XX- We'll have an Incident Command team, but it won't be like it was in the past. [no further details given.]

XX: I don't want to be subject to any more harrassment by LEO's

XX: Believe me we hear you about the LEO's let's get on to the site issue

[All Agree]

XX {VISIBLE BY VIDEO SCREEN & AUDIABLE}: Its dry down here in the Gila forest, So we lookde for water first {{notes of agreement}} then we looked to see if the sites were to close to town or too far out. We came up with 7 possible sites. 1. Snow Lake: off a main highway SE of Reserve NM 2. Eckelberger Spring 3:Beaver head 4: Burro Mnts. 5: Fort Baird 6:Mimbres 7: Black range {4,5&6 Rejected}

We Sugested ::

XX: here are 3 areas ide like to suggest 1. NE Alma on Deep Creek Eside rt 180 Copper creek area. 2: W of Alma-Hanna Springs

[Fs:this is in AZ]

XX: There's lots of water open ways for clean up

XX: &Third Turner Peak - NW of Luna NM off fs220 on trout creek on the AZ border 5N 21W

XX: Recent years our gathering has been 10000K or so people fewer than in the past for what ever reson

XX: But NM favorite state for rainbows

XX: in 77' we were in Burnt Coral Canyon- E fork Gila canyon 2 to 5 miles N of there is a possible area theres truck access. in '77 we floated tons of grape fruits on the river down to the gathering!

[next we went to Carson Forest sites]

XX: We only found two areas 1. is the Canjilon area but we are doing work there "burning ect" so thats out for 2009 gathering. The other area is the san antonio medow area which weve used before in 1995 and again in 2007 its 45 miles to taos-30 miles to antonito firewood is available there now. In '95, the springs we used were tested & found to have ecoli in them but were used anyway with no bad effects.

XX: Recently some (random) scouts asked about the valli grand Dan(Rael) dosent recommend it . Its too dry- firewood limited - fs 80 is too narrow & rough. The other side of comino real is too steepgrand park is beautiful , but theres no water up hill from the site , the same goes for osha parck

XX: there are other tributaries of the rio san antonito: these sites not promising {{Rio Grand Nutritas Rio de Los Pinos-KC: theres the blue ribbon trout fishing area managed for fishermen with camps ect.

XX: How about the Kioa Grass lands; whos in charge there?

XX: thats Cibola Forest

{{Location to be anounced}

[FINALLY : We Discussed Thanksgiving Council FS Reps were Invited to talk with us on that friday or saturday after thanksgiving we will next meet again With FS on Wednesday 17 December 2008]

End of meeting

Scribe XXX

All other editing collaborated collectively

1 comment:

Anonymous said...

Glad to see the dialogue!

Especially this portion:
"XX - Don't blame the LEOs. We are a tool of management. Sometimes, we can be a scalpel, sometimes a club. But we are a tool of management."

Wow. Tool of management. What if we began talking to all of them as such, instead of addressing them in "normal" ways?